Part 30 - Dec 05 2003

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#875 From: gujoy@..., list@..., osfree@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 7:16 pm
Subject: mailing list osfree@yahoogroups.comЕФздЖЏЛиаХ gugujoy
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#876 From: Jeff Robinson <jeffnik@...>
Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 1:43 am
Subject: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page kfops
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Yuri Prokushev wrote:
> ** Reply to message from menchie@... on Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:49:29
-0600
>
>
>>>>IMHO - I think http://www.osfree.org should have a simple
>>>>forum (does not need to be complex) and/or a 'mailing list'
>>>>to keep people uptodate on the progress of OSFree.
>
>
>>From: "Yuri Prokushev" <yuri_prokushev@...>
>>
>>>Check site.
>>
>>Irregardless of the that, it doesn't render worth a crap
>>in Netscape 4.78 under win98. I can't read the top part
>>of the front page at all...
>>
>>Oddly, the bottom bits are fine on the front page.
>
> Netscape 4.x doesn't supports CSS correctly. Turn off style sheets
> (Edit->Preferences->Advanced->Enable style sheets) and all will be readable.
Of
> course all decoration will be lost, but content readable. I'll turn off style
> sheets usage for Netscape 4.x users by default in near future (also make some
> site updates).
>
>

A way to work around this problem is to define your stylesheets as such:
<style type="text/css" title="UnixOS2 style">@import
url('pages/UnixOS2_white.css');</style>

Apparently the Netscape 4.x series doesn't implement the statement as
is, so won't try and load the style-sheets, but will of course display
the contents of the page.

Jeff
--
----------------
Whatza JamochaMUD?
http://jamochamud.anecho.mb.ca

Or other stuff: http://www.anecho.mb.ca/~jeffnik
-----------------------------------------------------------

[admin]

#877 From: "Yuri Prokushev" <yuri_prokushev@mail.ru>
Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:54 am
Subject: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page prokushev
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** Reply to message from Jeff Robinson <jeffnik@...> on Fri, 05 Dec
2003 16:43:06 -0600

> > Netscape 4.x doesn't supports CSS correctly. Turn off style sheets
> > (Edit->Preferences->Advanced->Enable style sheets) and all will be readable.
Of
> > course all decoration will be lost, but content readable. I'll turn off
style
> > sheets usage for Netscape 4.x users by default in near future (also make
some
> > site updates).
> A way to work around this problem is to define your stylesheets as such:
> <style type="text/css" title="UnixOS2 style">@import
> url('pages/UnixOS2_white.css');</style>
> Apparently the Netscape 4.x series doesn't implement the statement as
> is, so won't try and load the style-sheets, but will of course display
> the contents of the page.
Imagine another browser which supports @import statament but not supports CSS
correcly. No, I prefer to solve such things in another way. But thanks for your
help.

wbr,
Yuri

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#878 From: "Mike Dugan" <menchie@...>
Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page thedugan
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> Imagine another browser which supports @import statament but not
> supports CSS correcly. No, I prefer to solve such things in
> another way. But thanks for your help.

Imagine IE without security flaws? <chuckle>
Imagine problems with MS products NOT being called "features" LOL !

I'll stick with Netscape and skip the site....I can deal with not
having the page formatted correctly, but I'm not going to cripple
Netscape for a single page of text.

How can you justify not making a small change to a site's page, to
get it readable by anyone's browser - yet write an Operating System?
:-/

PS - this is a rhetorical question, I expect no answer.

[admin]

#879 From: "Yuri Prokushev" <yuri_prokushev@mail.ru>
Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:02 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page prokushev
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** Reply to message from "Mike Dugan" <menchie@...> on Sat, 06 Dec 2003
12:12:27 -0000

> Imagine IE without security flaws? <chuckle>
> Imagine problems with MS products NOT being called "features" LOL !
>
> I'll stick with Netscape and skip the site....I can deal with not
> having the page formatted correctly, but I'm not going to cripple
> Netscape for a single page of text.
Page formatted correctly. Netscape shows it's incorrectly. And it's problem of
Netscape. For example, some sites reports content type as text/text instead of
text/html. And Mozilla shows such pages as text. Is it problem of Mozilla? No.
It is problem of site maintainer. But in our case used correctly created
HTML/SS with correct content type. If's problem of browser.

> How can you justify not making a small change to a site's page, to
> get it readable by anyone's browser - yet write an Operating System?
> :-/
Hey, please read before writing. I'm not told about not making changes but
about making it without voodoo. If browser supports feature incorrectly
(exmaple Netscape's "support" of CSS) then it is problem of browser. I just
disable correponding feature for such browser and let user use limited version
of site. And not depending on things like version x supports one subset of
"feature" but version y uses another subset. Such way can bring more problem
instead of solutions. Netscape 4.8 can start support @import statament but CSS
processing will be still broken. As result I must add another voodoo to solve
problems with CSS. No, thanks. As I sayd, I prefer to solve such things only
once.

> PS - this is a rhetorical question, I expect no answer.
If you don't need answer why you asks questions?

If browser shows it incorrectly - just inform me. And I'll disable one or
another feature for such browsers and all will work ok. I can't check it for
all browsers. And don't want do so.

PS: Please read before writing. Stressing "just for fun" is not good idea at
all.

[admin]

#880 From: menchie@...
Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 2:37 am
Subject: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page thedugan
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"Yuri Prokushev" <yuri_prokushev@...> wrote:
> > Imagine IE without security flaws? <chuckle>
> > Imagine problems with MS products NOT being called "features" LOL !
> >
> > I'll stick with Netscape and skip the site....I can deal with not
> > having the page formatted correctly, but I'm not going to cripple
> > Netscape for a single page of text.

> Page formatted correctly. Netscape shows it's incorrectly. And it's problem of
> Netscape. For example, some sites reports content type as text/text instead of
> text/html. And Mozilla shows such pages as text. Is it problem of Mozilla? No.
> It is problem of site maintainer. But in our case used correctly created
> HTML/SS with correct content type. If's problem of browser.

Perhaps I am not being plain...I *understand* that NS 4.78 does not support CSS.
It's CSS I object to....I don't like frames either - but....

> > How can you justify not making a small change to a site's page, to
> > get it readable by anyone's browser - yet write an Operating System?
> > :-/

> Hey, please read before writing.

I always do....

> I'm not told about not making changes but
> about making it without voodoo. If browser supports feature incorrectly
> (exmaple Netscape's "support" of CSS) then it is problem of browser. I just

My point has always been this - use of non-basic formats limits your audience.
I know people that still use *LYNX* to browse webpages....

I'm discussing *marketing*, not coding style.

> disable correponding feature for such browser and let user use limited version
> of site. And not depending on things like version x supports one subset of
> "feature" but version y uses another subset. Such way can bring more problem
> instead of solutions. Netscape 4.8 can start support @import statament but CSS
> processing will be still broken. As result I must add another voodoo to solve
> problems with CSS. No, thanks. As I sayd, I prefer to solve such things only
> once.

What I'm suggesting is to use straight HTML, without CSS. Virtually every
browser
will support it, and you widen your audience. CSS is (to me) useless extra code
-
if someone's browser does not support it, the page is unreadable. If you have a
page without whatever CSS is giving you, it's not a big loss - I'm not getting
the "style elements" - which is the digital equivalent of wearing a silk suit
to the grocery store as far as I'm concerned.....

Why do we have to run to keep up with standards, when we are just fine walking
along the road with what we have?

Good Grief, you guys are making an OS2 clone - don't you think that *maybe* some
of the OS2 users you are trying to reach are using antiquated browsers? <sigh>


> > PS - this is a rhetorical question, I expect no answer.

> If you don't need answer why you asks questions?

I figure that if you might not get it, others might. Call it a "cry in the
wilderness" if you like.....

> If browser shows it incorrectly - just inform me. And I'll disable one or
> another feature for such browsers and all will work ok. I can't check it for
> all browsers. And don't want do so.
>
> PS: Please read before writing. Stressing "just for fun" is not good idea at
> all.

I am, you are not getting the thrust of my argument.
(I've had this discussion half a dozen times in the past with others)
(imagine that!)

[admin]

#881 From: "Yuri Prokushev" <yuri_prokushev@mail.ru>
Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 5:08 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page prokushev
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** Reply to message from menchie@... on Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:37:35 -0600

> > Page formatted correctly. Netscape shows it's incorrectly. And it's problem
of
> > Netscape. For example, some sites reports content type as text/text instead
of
> > text/html. And Mozilla shows such pages as text. Is it problem of Mozilla?
No.
> > It is problem of site maintainer. But in our case used correctly created
> > HTML/SS with correct content type. If's problem of browser.
> Perhaps I am not being plain...I *understand* that NS 4.78 does not support
CSS.
> It's CSS I object to....I don't like frames either - but....
> > > How can you justify not making a small change to a site's page, to
> > > get it readable by anyone's browser - yet write an Operating System?
> > > :-/
> > Hey, please read before writing.
> I always do....
Heh. And you still consider I don't want to fix the problem?

> > I'm not told about not making changes but
> > about making it without voodoo. If browser supports feature incorrectly
> > (exmaple Netscape's "support" of CSS) then it is problem of browser. I just
> My point has always been this - use of non-basic formats limits your audience.
> I know people that still use *LYNX* to browse webpages....
HTML/xml is basic structuring layer. CSS is formatting/decorating layer. Mixing
of formating and structuring (markingup) layers bring lot of locigal and
technical problems (example - html). And it's not solution to use historical
but incorrect approach. Historically formating done using tables. It is
absolutely not logical. Presenting not tables (by logic) by tables confusing
and brings more presentation problems in comparation with layered model. And
layered model supports things like text-only browsers, html 3.2 only browsers
and other better. Problems is only with browsers wich ties to support such
model, but absolutely in incorect form. It's easely to disable one layer for
such browsers. If use, for example, tables for formatting then I must test
pages manually with all possible browsers and try to find such solution wich
works less or more for all of then. It is lot of work. I have no time and don't
want to do such stupid work.

> I'm discussing *marketing*, not coding style.
Heh. Then, again, read carefuly . I'm not trying to limit browsers wich
possible to use. I'm only about coding style. I fixed (I hope) problems with
Netscape 4.x now. But not in way which Jeff proposed, because it's can make
problems with other browsers, but in another way, which will not have such
problems in future.

Current widely used "basic" format has more problems in comparation with
standard formats. Just stopid font-size customisation can bring more problem.
It is because all layers mixed. Pages contains as layering approch as mixed
approach. CSS mixed with html attributes plus table-formatting... Brr... It's
hell and only problems. It's real problem if thing like "best viewed by...",
"optimized for...", etc.

> > disable correponding feature for such browser and let user use limited
version
> > of site. And not depending on things like version x supports one subset of
> > "feature" but version y uses another subset. Such way can bring more problem
> > instead of solutions. Netscape 4.8 can start support @import statament but
CSS
> > processing will be still broken. As result I must add another voodoo to
solve
> > problems with CSS. No, thanks. As I sayd, I prefer to solve such things only
> > once.
> What I'm suggesting is to use straight HTML, without CSS. Virtually every
browser
> will support it, and you widen your audience.
Heh. It's why I used layered approach. CSS is addition not requirement. Turn of
CSS (or use browser wich doesn't supports CSS) and you'll see plain HTML. Only
problems with middleway browsers (like netscape 4.x) because they try to
"support" thing wich not really support. Result was inpredictable.

> CSS is (to me) useless extra code -
> if someone's browser does not support it, the page is unreadable.
Not correct. If browser support it incorrectly then page is unreadable. But if
browser doesn't support CSS - you'll see just plain CSS.

> If you have a
> page without whatever CSS is giving you, it's not a big loss - I'm not getting
> the "style elements" - which is the digital equivalent of wearing a silk suit
> to the grocery store as far as I'm concerned.....
Look at any site. Most of them uses tables, hidden images, non-breaking space
and lot of other things to do "style elemets". And I always see various
problems with warious browsers. And I can't control such pages. I can't turn
off styles, because some fonts/colors controlled by attributes another by
styles. I can't turn off images, because they used as navigation, but doesn't
contains alt attribute. And much more other problems. It's result of "browsers
war". I don't remember any page wich was created using netscape for visual
control and works just fine with IE. I looked at IE version 2 months later of
page publishing and all was just fine. And it's works just fine with "stoneage"
text-browser. And works fine with HTML 2.0 browser. Only problem was with
Netscape, wich considers support CSS but it doesn't. Most probably same problem
with "I all know bette" IE browser (older versions). Don't know. I have not
seen any report about pages before now.

> Why do we have to run to keep up with standards, when we are just fine walking
> along the road with what we have?
Heh. Why do we use dead OS, when we are just fine walking along the road
with what we have?

> Good Grief, you guys are making an OS2 clone - don't you think that *maybe*
some
> of the OS2 users you are trying to reach are using antiquated browsers? <sigh>
Yes. And it's why layered model was used.

> > If browser shows it incorrectly - just inform me. And I'll disable one or
> > another feature for such browsers and all will work ok. I can't check it for
> > all browsers. And don't want do so.
> >
> > PS: Please read before writing. Stressing "just for fun" is not good idea at
> > all.
> I am, you are not getting the thrust of my argument.
> (I've had this discussion half a dozen times in the past with others)
> (imagine that!)
Really? You told to someone "do in such way, not in your" alredy? And was
succesful??? I think no. You asked about fixing problems - I said ok. You start
talking about changing "coding style" I said no. And this is not because I
don't want to fix a problem. It because proposed approch bring me more problems
in future. Remember, I told "I fix it and here is temporary solution". You said
"Hey! You limits me in browser selection". Remember, I not propsed your to
change browser or upgrade to newer version.

wbr,
Yuri

PS: I propose to stop talking about nothing. I really consider W3C way is
better when Netscape's one.
PPS: Bugreports still welcomed

[admin]

#882 From: "Kenn Yuill" <kenn.yuill@...>
Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 5:56 am
Subject: Re: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page kenn.yuill@...
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Hello Yuri,
In reply to your message, sent to osFree@yahoogroups.com. I write:
__________________________________________________________
On 2003-12-08 at 20:08:12, a message from Yuri Prokushev stated:

>ЗRemember, I told "I fix it and here is temporary solution". You said
>З"Hey! You limits me in browser selection". Remember, I not propsed your to
>Зchange browser or upgrade to newer version.
>З
>Зwbr,
>ЗYuri
>З
>ЗPS: I propose to stop talking about nothing. I really consider W3C way is
>Зbetter when Netscape's one.
>ЗPPS: Bugreports still welcomed

This is not a bug-report, but just to let you know that the main page,
the results of the vote and the page of old news are quite readable in
glinks (links 2.1 p14 with support for graphics & javascript, built by
David Yeo).

Ciao,
Kenn
__________________________________________________________
Always act as if life is a joyous journey. - Kenn Yuill
Warp 4/FP15 Java 1.18 PMMail/2 2.2 Demo. glinks 2.1
Posted from The Beautiful Ottawa Valley, Ontario, Canada
__________________________________________________________
- A Thought for Today -
The fact that Windows is one of the most popular operating systems
means that evolution is badly flawed and the human race is doomed.
- Paraphrased tagline of Scott Jones (scottjones@...)
__________________________________________________________

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#883 From: Carl <carlossuss@...>
Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:09 am
Subject: Re: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page carlossuss
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I thought I would take the opportunity to jump in here, while you are
arguing about the OSFree web page

I can load the first page fine, but other pages have this at the bottom:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Љ 2002-2003 osFree team

*Warning*: fopen(counter.dat) [function.fopen
<http://www.php.net/function.fopen>]: failed to create stream:
Permission denied in */home/osFree/httpd/html/counter.phpi* on line *13*

*Warning*: fputs(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in
*/home/osFree/httpd/html/counter.phpi* on line *16*

*Warning*: fclose(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in
*/home/osFree/httpd/html/counter.phpi* on line *17*

*Warning*: file(counter.dat) [function.file
<http://www.php.net/function.file>]: failed to create stream: No such
file or directory in */home/osFree/httpd/html/counter.phpi* on line *20*
Total hits: 1 Total hosts: 1 Daily hits: 0 Daily hosts: 0

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm using Mozilla 1.3 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3)
Gecko/20030708 Debian/1.3-4.lindows43)

I'm not trying to give you more work to do, just letting you know.

Carl.

>Heh. Then, again, read carefuly . I'm not trying to limit browsers wich
>possible to use. I'm only about coding style. I fixed (I hope) problems with
>Netscape 4.x now. But not in way which Jeff proposed, because it's can make
>problems with other browsers, but in another way, which will not have such
>problems in future.
>
>
>wbr,
>Yuri
>
>PS: I propose to stop talking about nothing. I really consider W3C way is
>better when Netscape's one.
>PPS: Bugreports still welcomed
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>osFree-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[admin]

#884 From: "Yuri Prokushev" <yuri_prokushev@mail.ru>
Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:43 pm
Subject: Re: Re: OSFREE - garbled front page prokushev
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** Reply to message from Carl <carlossuss@...> on Thu, 11 Dec 2003
06:09:16 +0000

> I thought I would take the opportunity to jump in here, while you are
> arguing about the OSFree web page
Hey! U a welcome!

> I can load the first page fine, but other pages have this at the bottom:
[eated]
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Most probably page cached somewhere in proxy or locally. Try to reload page
(Ctrl-Reload or Shift-Reload, don't remember correctly). This bug was
introduced when hitscounter was added. But currently all must work just fine.

> I'm using Mozilla 1.3 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3)
> Gecko/20030708 Debian/1.3-4.lindows43)
Doesn't matter, most probably. Bugs of such type is server-side. Only problems
with client can be with local cache. At least for "Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp
4.5; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020919 IBM Web Browser for OS/2" all works just
fine. Same for other browsers which I have locally (Netscape 4.6, old IBM Web
Explorer, IE 5.0)

> I'm not trying to give you more work to do, just letting you know.
Heh. no problem. I prefer to have work instead of "holy wars".

BTW, at the present work in progress is following:
1) Web-site:
a) More advanced forums
b) Better source code documentation
2) OS itself:
a) full replacement of CMD/REXX tandem

Currently we have some problems with rexx dlls (rexxutil, rxsock, etc). But in
general all works just fine (excluding applications wich uses 16bit REXX API
instead of 32bit, ie original CMD.EXE). But I hope this will be fixed in near
future.

Only question. Has anyone information about old 16-bit REXX API?

Btw, If anyone wants to write some documentation - u a welcom.

wbr,
Yuri